In the second chapter of our conversation with Chaofan Wan, a Miki Jun award-winning photographer, our discussion predominantly centred on the subject of photography, Wan shares with us his perspective on why he believes this is the best era for photography.
For the first chapter of our interview with Wan, please follow the link.
Through the Lens of Life
AW：拍完嘉陵江（「在水边」）之后你还有再回去过，重新看看，再拍点什么？
Have you been back to Jialing River (By the Water) ever since for another shoot?
CW：没有了，毕业之后就直接来日本留学了。重庆离我家也比较远，也没必要再回去拍，我对过去的东西不留恋，对新的也不期待。
Nope, after I graduated from Southwest University I came straight to Japan and haven’t been back to Chongqing ever since. It’s pretty far from my hometown, and there’s no reason for me to go back really, I don’t like living in the past, nor do I anticipate the future.
AW：摄影师马丁·帕尔（Martin Parr）说，所有的摄影师都很怀旧。我自己的看法是当你按下快门的那一刻，你眼前的这个东西就变成了过去。
Martin Parr said that all photographers carry a sense of nostalgia. How I understand that is, the second you release the camera shutter, the subject before your eyes transforms into a slice of the past, forever frozen in time.
CW：你看到的永远都过去了。
What you see will eventually become the bygones.
AW：从某种程度上说，摄影师永远都是在跟过去打交道。
To a degree, photographers are always dealing with the past.
CW：当然你要冷静的分析确实是这么一回事，但你拍的时候没人会想着拍的是过去。只能说你后来拍照片累了，然后在床上躺着，想想哲学性的问题“啊，原来我拍的是过去”。谁当时拍的时候会想这些，绝对不可能，根本没有时间和精力去深究这些问题。
Well if you must analyse it that’s not too widely off the mark, but this kind of thought would rarely cross anyone’s mind when they are photographing don’t you think? I mean, yes while you are lying on the bed after a day’s work and you would perhaps ponder on these types of philosophical questions, but not while you are in action, there’s never enough time, energy and space in the head.
AW：你自己也并不是一个很怀旧的人。
It sounded like you are not a nostalgic person at all.
CW：对，我无所谓，能回嘉陵江，回重庆当然也好。不过相比于回去拍照，我肯定会先去吃一轮，去念大学时很喜欢去的几家餐馆什么的，之后如果有时间的话再说。我当时拍嘉陵江拍了整整一年，因为学校就在附近，每天我都去拍。现在我要能再回去顶多呆一两天，能拍出什么作品么？拍一些散片也没有什么意义，仅仅是过了一下怀旧的瘾，这种自我陶醉的事儿我基本不干。
Honestly I don’t really mind, it would be nice to return to Jialing or Chongqing, but not necessarily for anything photography-related. I would prefer to go for a round of feasting first, like the restaurants I used to love when I was in university, if there’s still time then let’s see. The project of Jialing lasted for an entire year, I used to go there every single day because my uni was extremely close. If I go back now I simply would not be able to create any serious work out of a 2-day trip. Taking some random snaps would just be so banal wouldn’t it, it’s just an act of self-indulgence in a moment of nostalgia. Not for me really.
“…in my opinion, this is now the best era for photography.”
AW：另外一位摄影大师史蒂夫·麦凯瑞（Steve McCurry），他说很多时候他的作品会有一定程度的歧义，然后有的时候，他的作品是没有任何意思，他倾向于把这个解读的空间留给观者。你的摄影背后有没有一定的信息或者含义，是你希望传达给观看的人？
Steve McCurry used to say that his work contains a certain ambiguity but sometimes there’s utterly no meaning at all, he prefers to leave the interpretations to the audience. Is there a message that you are sending to audience via your work?
CW：肯定是有的，就像刚才说的，作品内包含了我的三观，能够跟观者产生多大共鸣，那我就无法预测了。你刚才提到的三位摄影师，跟我们这代摄影师最大的一个不同是，他们活在大众传媒比较兴盛的年代，他们拍的都是有目的性，都是要卖给报社的。既然是要卖给报章杂志的话，一定是有故事性，有历史性的衡量。所以首先当他们靠这个谋生的时候，是一定会影响到他们自己的价值判断和快门选择。现在我们的时代不一样，我们拍出来的东西，没有报社会花大价钱买，往日的杂志发布之类的传统渠道现在都不大走的通了，所以现在真正迎来了一个摄影解放的时代，是一个最自由的时代，你拍自己想拍的就好了。
现在对摄影来说，没有了传统的价值观和金钱的绑架，也没必要为了温饱去拍摄。并不完全钟情于摄影，或者靠摄影记录生活的都去拍短视频了。反而现在还在做，或者开始做摄影，才是纯纯粹粹，真真正正喜欢摄影的人。他们拍的东西是为了自己而拍的。当然我讨论的只是像我这样的业余摄影师，像职业的时尚摄影师，以及还是为杂志，为拍商单的摄影师不一样，业余的摄影师完全没有这类限制，特别自由，在我看来，现在应该就是摄影最好的时代了。
Intrinsically yes, as I mentioned earlier — my work essentially embodies my values. However, to what extent viewers can resonate with them, I can’t really tell. Comparing the three photographers that you spoke of, and our generation of photographers, the biggest difference perhaps lies in the fact that, they lived in an era when mass media was flourishing, they photographed with the objective of selling their photos to newspapers or magazines, for instance. Since their works were meant to be sold, significant narratives were essential — stories, historical value and so on. Therefore when they were making a living from photography, without a shadow of a doubt, this would impact their value judgments and their choices of subject to capture.
I think the time we are living in is somewhat disparate. In a nutshell, no newspapers would pay a staggering price for our photographs anymore, and the old-school typical channels like magazine publications don’t exactly work these days. Hence, in many ways, this is a truly liberating era for photography, offering tons of freedom. Whatever you want to shoot, it’s all up to the individual.
Photography to me right now, is completely free from any conventional norms and financial constraints. There’s no longer the need to photograph purely just to make a living. Those who lack passion for photography or merely use it to document their everyday, have all moved on to short videos. On the contrary, those who carry on to pursue photography or are beginning to explore it, are the ones who wholeheartedly love the art. Everything they capture through photography is exclusively for their own satisfaction and self-expression.
I’m referring to non-professionals like myself obviously, the professional fashion photographers on the other hand for example, or the ones who work for magazines or undertake commercial projects are a different case, amateur photographers have zero limitation and complete freedom, in my opinion, this is now the best era for photography.
AW：现在想要用摄影来谋生的话，相对来说会不会比较困难？
Nowadays if someone wishes to live on photography, it’s apparently quite hard to sustain is it not?
CW：我也没想过用摄影谋生。业余也挺好的，干别的工作来养摄影，一旦用摄影谋生的话… 也不是不行，有人找我，我就拍，没人找也不能强求对吧。
I have not once thought about making a living out of photography though, I’m fine being a non-professional, funding photography from other jobs and whatnot. But then I guess it’s not totally impossible, if someone reaches out for a commercial project I won’t just say no straight up, it’s not entirely my choosing obviously.
AW：你刚说‘现在可能是摄影最好的时代’，我的看法可能跟你有点出入，我总感觉现在这个时代，摄影这个媒介是被稀释得很严重的一个时代，因为社交媒体，手机，互联网的关系，我们每天都会看到太多太多的照片，照片被产生的速率是前所未有的。
When you said this is probably the best era for photography, I may have a slightly different opinion to that. I’ve always felt that in the times that we are living in right now, photography as a creative medium has been severely diluted, by social media, smartphones or the Internet etc., the rate at which photos are being produced is unprecedented, we encounter way too many photographs than we should these days.
CW：大家现在都去看短视频了啊，其实一天即使看到再多的照片，能有几张好的呢？
Many people have moved on to short videos now no? Although we see many photographs or images every day, how many of them are actually good?
AW：正因为数量太庞大了，比如说像我这种站在一个观者的角度，每天都看到太多照片，会不会因此观者们反而丢失了一种，可以用更严肃的态度去批判，去分辨，这张照片到底是好还是不好的能力呢？
I guess it’s because of the sheer quantity, as a viewer, for me to encounter so many photographs on a daily basis, I felt like in many ways we may have lost the ability to be critical of a photograph, to be able to differentiate, and to tell whether the work is good or not.
CW：我一直都不太喜欢以理性看待艺术，艺术去感受就好了。你看它又不图个啥，它没法给你带来什么经济上的收益，甚至任何实际的回报。艺术这个东西本来就对社会没有实际的用处，它的用途就在于满足了温饱之后，能够给你提供另外一个空间，让你去逃避当下的现实。所以说我觉得就无所谓啊，并且那么多人画画，那么多人写小说，有几个人的作品能够留下来，或者我们究竟又能看到多少呢？你说照片看的多，我们看文字也看很多，但到底有多少文字是好文字，那么多好的小说究竟有几个人去读过呢？那么多好的摄影作品，一般对摄影不感兴趣的普通人，他们究竟能看到多少好照片，这个比例我感觉差不多吧。
I’m somewhat resistant to approaching art from such a rational perspective; I prefer to experience art on an emotional level. I mean, art serves no purpose at all doesn’t it, and it can’t bring you any economic benefits or returns by viewing. Art itself doesn’t accomplish anything practical in society either; for me the primary essence of art resides in painting you an alternate realm to escape from the present reality, once your basic needs are fulfilled. So, I just think it doesn’t really matter you know, and besides, there are tons of paintings or novels out there too right, but how many of those can actually stand the test of time?
True, we see a lot of photographs every day, we also read a lot of texts every day no? It’s not like many of those are fantastic writings is it? The masterpieces, I bet not many have read them either. Despite the abundance of great photography work, for an average person who isn’t overly interested in the subject, chances are they haven’t come across that many good works I guess.
AW：包括刚刚提到的几位摄影师，有没有哪几位摄影师对你的影响比较大？
Including the photographers that we just brought up, anyone in particular inspired you the most?
CW：森山大道对我的影响很大，还有罗伯特·弗兰克（Robert Frank），约瑟夫·寇德卡（Josef Koudelka），这三位是都是在我初学摄影的时候对我影响特别大的。但当我拍照拍久了，我把自己列入跟他们是同行的情况下，我看到好的照片，会喜欢，会欣赏，但它对我的影响可能不会像以前那么大了。现在看到的一切都是竞争者，我可能拍的没他们好，但我不能怂（笑）。
Daido Moriyama influenced me immensely, as well as Robert Frank and Josef Koudelka. These three photographers were especially inspiring during my early days of photography studies. But um, by now I kind of consider myself as a peer alongside them, as I’ve been photographing for such a long time, obviously I still appreciate and admire great photos when I see them, even though they don’t have that much of an impact on me, everyone else is a competitor these days, I’m probably not as good as them, but I can’t back down either (laughs).
AW：托马斯·约书亚·库珀（Thomas Joshua Cooper）说，他去很遥远的地方拍照，他希望自己也可以学到一些东西，不管是做人，接受还是原谅。这么多年摄影拍照的过程中你有学到一些什么么？
Thomas Joshua Cooper, an American photographer once said that by going to remote places and taking pictures, he hoped that he could learn something, whether it’s to be a better human, more understanding or more forgiving. When you photograph, clearly enough image making is the top priority but outside of that, is there anything that you’ve learnt through that process?
CW：我发现很有意思，你选的这四段话，都是稍有点功利性的话，都是为了什么，才去做什么。因为我不是这样的，去远方拍照，我压根没有想过要学什么。比起想学什么，我宁愿吃点好吃的，喝点好喝的酒，对我来说真的是更重要。
I find it a bit curious that the four quotes you mentioned all have a somewhat utilitarian and pragmatic tone, like you pursue something only for the purpose of something, I guess I’m just not really like that as a person. When I travel to distant places to take photos, I don’t tend to think about what I want to learn, instead I would love to explore the local food or enjoy a good drink you know, these are way more appealing to be honest.
AW：相反摄影这个媒材它有教会你一些什么东西么？
Conversely, photography as a medium, has it taught you anything?
CW：错过了就错过了，新的总会再来。刚开始的时候错过了会懊恼很久 — 来不及按下快门，实物没拍好，没带相机，之类的，现在不会了，比较淡然，因为我知道我肯定还能拍到更好的，一定可以拍到令我自己满意的，这就够了。不会再去纠结错失的那一瞬间，永远没有非拍不可的一张照片。
If I miss it, I miss it. There will always be a next one. In the beginning, I used to feel so frustrated if I missed a shot – not pressing the shutter in time, not capturing the subject well, or not having my camera with me, and so on. Now, I’m more at ease because I just know I will 100% capture even better shots, and that’s enough. I won’t dwell on the moments I miss anymore; there’s never just one photo that must be taken.
AW：当你看到大家都举着手机拍照也好，录视频也好，有没有哪一个时刻，你会觉得说，太烦人了，老子不想拍了。
Do you not find it annoying, when you see everyone else holding up their smartphones, and be like, I’m done with this?
CW：没有。我永远都想拍，从来没有不想拍照的时候。很多人在拍也不会影响我，我就觉得别人拍的都是垃圾（笑）。我只能这么想啊，可能我拍的比别人拍的都垃圾，但那一刻你绝对不能这么想。他们拍他们的，我拍我的，最后可以选择不用（作为作品）就好了么。社交平台我也不发布作品，都是手机随手拍的，网站基本一两年更新一次。
No never, I would always, always want to take photos. Even if many others are doing it around me, it takes no toll on me whatsoever. In my head I would just think that they all suck (laughs) and that may be the only way for me to process it. Maybe I’m the one who sucks but at that particular moment you can never think like that. They do their things and I do mine. In the end, it’s not as though I’m going to publish every single photo that I’ve taken, nor consider all of them as my work, if you know what I mean. Like my social media feeds, they are all just whimsical random snaps, I don’t even tend to update my personal website that often, maybe once every year or two.
AW：很多拍照的人，可能会很有目的性地利用社交媒体去作为一个自我宣传的手段，但你也从来没有。
Many people who take photos, consciously utilise social media as a means of self-promotion, but it seems like you are not really a part of that gang.
CW：没有。也不是说真的没有时间，我就不想把时间花在这上，有这时间躺着看看小说我更开心一点。就还是回到刚刚说的，我对摄影没有那么功利性的看法。当然我也会焦躁，哎呀，关注量还这么少，但转念一想，少就少吧，我也没运营。我也不喜欢用小红书，别人在小红书上花那么多心思，就应该这么有名，相反我就理所当然不会有那么多人知道，付出多少回报多少，我在这上就没有付出，得不到回报也是应该的。反而是我在拍照这件事上付出那么多，最后拍不出自己喜欢的作品，我操那才伤心。
It’s not that I don’t have time for social media, it’s just that I rather not spend my time on it that’s all. It would be better for me to just lie down and read a novel or do something that I enjoy. It comes back to what I talked about earlier – I don’t have such utilitarian views on photography. Of course, occasionally it bothers me a little, “Crap, my follower count is still so low,” but then I realised it’s kind of fair, I don’t even use it that often, so whatever you know.
People who put so much effort into social media end up becoming famous or something, I think they thoroughly deserve it and it’s only natural that I don’t get that much attention. Instead, if I invest a massive amount of time and effort in photography and the final result doesn’t work out, man that’s the upsetting part.
AW：有没有花了很多功夫之后，最后出来的一系列照片都没有你预期中好的？
Has that ever occurred, after putting a lot of effort into creating something, the end result just didn’t turn out to be what you expected?
CW：没有。只要基本功达标，然后你目的明确，不可能拍不到好照片。直接摄影是最纯粹的，拍不出好照片的原因就是拍的不够多。首先你得去那儿，如实地，把眼前看到的拍下来，不加修饰，不会无中生有，把有的东西弄没，把没有的东西加进来。原来是怎么样，拍下来就是怎么样，只会简单地调整一下曝光，色调。
观念摄影拍不好就是想的少，再来是读的少，最后才是拍的少。相比起来观念摄影真的比较难，好的观念摄影我也非常喜欢，但是真的太少了。如果一个观念经不起推敲，不够有趣，不能打动人的话，那最终出来的作品肯定不够好。
As long as you have a relatively solid foundation in photography and a clear goal, it’s impossible not to capture good photos. For straight photography, the reason for not getting good shots is usually not practising enough, because for me this is the purest form of photography. You must be at the scene first of all, capturing what’s in front of you truthfully, without embellishment, without fabricating something that doesn’t exist. Whatever the scene is, you photograph it as it is, with basic adjustments in exposure and tone and such.
Conceptual photography, on the other hand, becomes challenging if you lack ideas, haven’t read enough then at last, having insufficient practice. By comparison conceptual photography is indeed more demanding. I genuinely appreciate excellent conceptual photography, but honestly, there’s not much of it around. If a concept cannot withstand scrutiny, lacks allure, and fails to touch people, then the final work will without doubt, be a lousy piece.
AW：自个儿有没有想说尝试一下观念摄影？
Ever thought of dabbling in conceptual photography?
CW：观念摄影这个东西吧，我自个儿想的是，我现在还算年轻，走的动，那我就继续用我现在这套工作方式拍摄。等我之后走不动了，我可能再试试观念摄影。并且最开始摄影吸引我的，就是直接摄影，也就是我现在依然在进行着的，拿着相机，走出去拍照。在路上走，不停地走，走多久拍多久，这个工作方法对我影响极大。我喜欢的照片都是这么拍出来的。
一旦上了岁数之后，如果因为我的体能等各方面原因，这个工作方法行不通了，那我可能会换一套工作方法，再考虑去尝试观念摄影或者别的。都是不太一样的东西，就像传统料理，好吃的就是好吃啊，创意料理，好吃的也很多，所以说没有谁比谁好，就是想做哪个，就做哪个。
Right now, I think I’m still young, and I can still manage physically, so I would very much like to continue to apply my current approach to photography. When the time comes that I’m no longer mobile, I might then reappraise and consider trying conceptual photography. From the start, straight photography was what captivated me, and it’s something that I haven’t stopped practising to this day — taking the camera, being on the road, pointing and shooting. I walk the streets, constantly in motion, take photos for as long as I possibly can. This working method has had a profound impact on me, and all of my personal favourite photos are taken adhering to this method.
Once I get older, if, due to physical limitations or other reasons, and this approach becomes ineffective, I would potentially consider engaging in conceptual photography or whatever. It’s analogous to that of traditional cuisine and fusion, it’s not about what’s better, all up to the person isn’t it.
AW：你来日本这么长一段时间了，尽管之前还是每年都回中国，但有没有认真考虑过回国一段时间，重新认识一下？
You’ve lived in Japan for a reasonably long time now, like you said, before the pandemic you used to visit China every now and then, but have you ever considered staying for a longer period and reacquainting yourself with your hometown?
CW：没有，有时间就回去看看。新闻什么的也一直有关注，没有什么特别需要我重新认识的地方。
Nope. I mean, I go back whenever I could, and I follow the news every day so I know what’s happening, I don’t think there’s anything for me to be reacquainted with.
AW：我不久前刚看到一位在日本的中国摄影师王露，有一部作品集，拍的是她的出生地，跟她爸爸之间的一些故事。她拍这个系列有个很大的契机，因为她出生长大的城市，现在跟以前是完全两个样子。
Not long ago, I came across a Tokyo-based Chinese photographer named Wang Lu, she’s got this photography publication that zoomed in on her place of birth, and it tells a story between her and her father. The catalyst for her to create this series was because where she was born and raised, has changed so drastically from what it once was.
CW：我的家乡也一样，小时候的建筑全都拆了，现在都是高楼，开发区，回去的时候我都迷路。但这对我来说，只是外观上的变化，本质没有变，人没有变，所以对我来说没有什么实质性的变化。
The situation is pretty much the same as my hometown, all the buildings I once knew were all demolished, now it’s all high-rise and most of the areas are undergoing developments, I couldn’t even find my way when I was there. But for me these changes are all superficial, the core remains virtually stagnant, same thing can be said for the people, so to me, there is no real change, or difference therefore.
AW：从一开始接触摄影到现在，不管是拍摄的场景，自己的心情，甚至是器材，有没有改变呢？
From the very beginning of your photography journey until now, has there been any change at all, in terms of the scenes you like to capture, emotions, or even the equipments you use?
CW：有啊！最大的改变就是去年买了数码相机。胶卷价钱近几年涨了三四倍，我拍不起了。用了数码相机之后发现真香，太好用了。唯一不好的是，使用胶片的人一定是有恋物癖，通过暗房的操作之后，拿到手的是实物，但是数码照片是数据，会有不安全感，没电了，硬盘坏了，照片就没了。我对胶片倒也没有什么特殊的情怀，现在选择了数码纯粹是经济考量。
Yes of course! The biggest change I would say is that I bought a digital camera last year. The price of photographic film has skyrocketed recently and I just couldn’t afford it anymore. And man, the digital camera is freaking incredible. The only drawback however, is perhaps that for people who use film, they must have some kind of a fetish — after the darkroom process, you get a physical, tangible object; whereas digital photos, they are just data aren’t they, and there’s a sense of insecurity —- if the battery dies or the hard drive fails, the photos are gone. I don’t have any emotional attachment to film though, and I’m choosing digital right now for economical reasons simply put.
AW：摄影对你来说，有什么特殊的意义么？
Does photography hold any significance for you?
CW：没有意义，就是能够让我自我满足的一个媒介。能够满足我的同时，也能够给其他人带来一些东西，就可以了。但首先一定得是满足我自己。
There’s no significance whatsoever, it’s just a medium that allows me to self-satisfy. As long as it satisfies me while bringing something to others, it’s more than enough to be honest. But first and foremost, it has to fulfil no one else but me.
The original interview was conducted in Mandarin Chinese by Axel Wang on 25 February 2023. The conversation has been condensed and edited. The title of the chapter is in reference to the song by the Chairs (椅子樂團) from their 2018 album Lovely Sunday.
Editor & Design: Axel Wang
Photography: Courtesy of the photographer