Chaofan Wan, originally from Hubei, China, now based in Tokyo. He has earned a doctoral degree from Tokyo University of the Arts, with a diverse academic background that includes a bachelor’s degree from Southwest University in Chongqing, China, and a master’s degree in Political Economy from Tokyo Meiji University. Beyond his academic achievements, Wan is a co-founder of STAIRS PRESS and closely affiliated with the Totem Pole Photo Gallery in Tokyo.
Unwaveringly commits to long-term photographic projects, exemplified by Wan’s latest series, Yes, the River Knows – Arakawa River, in which the production time spanned well over five years, observing life and landscape along the Arakawa River and earning him the 44th New Cosmos of Photography Excellence Award in 2021.
2023 proved to be a prolific year for the photographer, as he clinched both the Miki Jun Award and the Photo City Sagamihara Award. Wan’s work gazes at the nuances and intricacies of everyday life and society, devoid of any form of symbolisms and decorative embellishments. Steadfastly adheres to the practise of straight photography, Wan captures what he sees, free from judgment or preconceived notions.
I had the wonderful opportunity of meeting the photographer for the first time in December 2022, the rendezvous unfolded at a quaint little café tucked away in the backdrop of Shibuya, Tokyo. The morning was brisk and I arrived a tad early at the venue, shortly thereafter, Wan joined me, sporting a beanie and a Barbour jacket. Unlike the customary bowing that often accompanies first-time encounters in Japan, Wan was refreshingly no-nonsense and direct. With a simple greeting, we both took our seats. The photographer exuded an air of casual ease, our interaction was unassuming and seamless, where he swiftly agreed to participate in an interview, setting the stage for any potential collaboration. Following this initial encounter, we caught up with each other once more for the interview in Wan’s studio, conveniently nestled not too far from the heart of Shinjuku. Our topics of discussion were primarily centred around the world of photography, please find the opening segment of the transcript of our conversation below, as well the second instalment here.
Yes, the River Knows
Axel Wang：超凡，我读你之前的访谈，关于作品方面已经谈到不少了，如果在我们这个访问过程中问到了一些重复的问题，希望你不要介意。
Before our chat today Chaofan, I read some of your past interviews where you discussed many aspects of your work, I hope you don’t mind if some repetitive questions come up during our conversation.
Chaofan Wan：没有关系，都可以。
No problem.
AW：你在河北固安出生，现在对那个地方还有什么印象么？
So you were born in Gu’an, China, do you still remember much about the place?
CW：一直很有印象，如果不是疫情的话每年肯定都要回去，毕竟家在那儿啊。也3年多了，今年6月份可能要回去一下。
Yes of course, if it wasn’t for the pandemic I used to go back every year. It’s been like 3 years now, I may fly back sometime in June (2023).
AW：说一下日本吧。你刚来东京的时候，这座城市有给你带来什么不一样的感受么？
What about Japan, when you first arrived in Tokyo, was there anything that impressed you?
CW：也没什么太大的。就是挺好的，挺喜欢的。东京街道比较干净，当然人与人的距离会有点远。到现在来日本已经第10个年头了吧，呆久了就感觉还挺舒服的，老实说我不太在乎环境，在哪都可以。喜欢大城市的原因主要是方便 — 买东西，吃饭，看展各方面。国内的话，人跟人的交流会更多一点，但人际关系可能会稍微复杂一些，东京虽然感觉人跟人的距离比较远，但有时候这样反而能够让我更加集中注意力来做自己的事情。
Nothing of note frankly. Obviously Tokyo is nice and clean, and I enjoy living here, even though people seem to keep a larger distance away from each other. It’s been like 10 years since my first arrival in Japan, and as time goes by, I have found Tokyo to be rather comfortable. Truth be told, my surroundings do not really impact me much, I can sort of just adapt anywhere. The main reason I like metropolitan cities is mainly because of convenience – shopping, dining, checking out exhibitions and so on. There may be more interactions between individuals back in China in contrast, but interpersonal relationships can be sometimes too intimate and overly complicated for me. Tokyo, on the other hand, has fewer of these complexities. Although people tend to mind their own business, it kind of allows me to focus more on my work.
AW：你在明治大学取得了政治经济学学位后，是什么原因，让你在念博士的时候选择了摄影？
After obtaining a degree in Political Economics from Meiji University, what led you to choose photography during your doctoral studies?
CW：一开始觉得，摄影就是自己拍就好了，不需要学。但是明治大学后，因为自己学的是政治学，想研究摄影与政治的关系，那就不妨读个博士试试。但学的更多是理论方面的，跟拍摄没有太大的关系，拍摄基本都自学的。
Initially I imagined I could just self-study photography, since I did politics for my Master’s at Meiji and after graduation, I wanted to dig a little deeper into the relationship between politics and photography so I just thought why not, you know, studying photography for my Ph.D. It was mostly theories though, not so much about how to take a photo and so on, I kind of learnt that by myself.
AW：「浅田家！」这部电影讲述的是一位日本摄影师的故事，跟你的人生经历，不知道有没有一些相似之处？
The movie, The Asadas1, tells the story of a Japanese photographer, I wonder if there are any similarities between this movie and your life experiences?
CW：完全没有。
Absolutely none.
AW：电影中男主角去大阪念大学的时候不是经历了一段比较沉沦的日子嘛，纹身呀，留长发，染金发什么的，你有没有过这么一段，稍微有点儿离经叛道的日子？
The protagonist went through a period of, indulgence shall I say, while studying at a university in Osaka — tattoos, dying his hair blonde and etc., have you ever gone through such a rebellious phase in your life?
CW：没有。我一直处在一个比较平稳的状态，因为我感觉我想要的东西很明确，不太需要什么外界的刺激或者新鲜感。
Not really, my life and my mental state have always been relatively stable, I guess it’s because I’ve always known what I wanted and I don’t really need external stimulation or novelty per se.
“The reason I love photography is precisely because of the fact that I would never be able to break into the fabric of the world on my own…”
AW：聊一下摄影相关的吧。在去到一个场景拍摄之前，你脑海里会有一些既定的，想要拍摄的对象或者画面么？
Let’s have a few words about photography. Before arriving at the scene for a shoot, do you have any preconceived images in your mind, of what you want to capture?
CW：没有，就是未知的东西它才吸引我。如果我知道了它是什么，我可能就不太想拍了吧。或者除非是我大概了解那有什么，能够拍出特别牛逼的照片，那我肯定会跑一趟。一般来说我不太做任何事前调查，就去拍了。
No, the unknown is what appeals to me. If I knew what it was in advance, I might lose interest in capturing it in photos. Unless, I have a rough idea of the place and the subject, and I’m totally confident that I can grab an amazing shot, then I would definitely pay a visit. Under general circumstances I don’t conduct any research before I go and photograph.
AW：打个比方，比如说你现在去京都玩儿，你有没有想说一定要拍到怎样的一个场景或者人？
Let’s say, you are in Kyoto now, would there be any specific scene or person that you would really want to capture?
CW：那肯定也会，但没有到那么具体。比如东京湾的的起点，有两座灯塔，分别在千叶市和三浦市，两个灯塔之间的东京湾，肯定要拍，也包括这两座灯塔的周边环境。具体要去了当地，取决于当时环境，再来决定怎么拍。事前只会有一个比较模糊的印象。
Well yes, but not that specific. Say for instance, the entry point to Tokyo Bay2 is marked by two lighthouses, one located in Chiba city and one in Miura city. For the new series that I’m working on currently, the scenery between the two lighthouses is imperative, including the surrounding of each lighthouse, is something that I would really like to capture, but to the extent of what exactly, solely depends on the day, there exists only this fairly vague outline of an image in my head beforehand.
AW：按快门那一下纯粹是本能。
Shutter instinct.
CW：本能，我不太预设什么。考虑太多的话… 人的脑子太小，外面的世界大多了，我喜欢摄影的原因就是因为我无法预料这个世界究竟是什么样子，会发生什么，会看见什么。我看到的一切，我拍到的一切，这些都不是我内心里面，脑海内既有的东西，并不是的。它（摄影）给我的，完全是一种新鲜的东西。画画的话就不一样，你看不到或者想不到的东西，基本画不出来。我喜欢摄影的是相遇的那一刹那所带给我的感觉，更多是传统的直接摄影。观念摄影的话我也会看，但自己不会去做。
Instinct indeed. I try not to presume too much. I mean.. Our brains are way too small to grasp the entire world. The reason I love photography is precisely because of the fact that I would never be able to break into the fabric of the world on my own — what I would actually encounter this second and what’s going to happen next. Everything that I can see, everything that I capture, they don’t already pre-exist in me. What photography brings me, is something fresh on another spectrum.
It differs from painting, where you can’t just fire up your imagination and then draw or depict things you haven’t seen. Photography is all about that split second of encountering, especially the traditional style and straight photography. I do look at conceptual photography too, but it’s not something that I do personally.
AW：印象中我们第一次见面的时候，你说你并不是一个特别喜欢出游的一个人。
I remember when we first met, you said you didn’t particularly enjoy travelling.
CW：喜欢呀，就是去的话更好，但不去也无妨。去的话一定是为了拍摄新的东西，并不纯粹是旅游。比如去京都，奈良什么，就基本是玩儿，不太拍照，因为拍出来的一切都太京都，太奈良了。
Well yes I do, but it’s not like I have an obsession with it. When I go on travelling, the destination must be somewhere I can photograph something new. If I go to Kyoto or Nara for example, I pretty much just remain as a tourist because everything I photograph there, is just way too much Kyoto or Nara.
AW：都被拍了千百万遍了。
All have been photographed a million times.
CW：对的，当然你也可以拍一些比较个人的东西，但我感觉成品最后出来还是不太一样。其实你去哪里旅游，去哪里拍照，是你在跟当地在做一个抗争，一个搏斗比赛的过程。京都奈良已经被一代一代的人填充得太满了，我跟他摔跤的话，一次旅游是不可能赢过它的。除非我能在那住上一段时间之后，我才能知道应该怎样把它干倒，但如果就光旅游三四天我干不倒他。
You are right. I mean, you can still photograph some odd personal things, but I just feel like that the end product is hardly up to par. Meaning that, if you are taking photos while you are travelling, it’s as if you are battling that place, it’s a process of wrestling. Kyoto or Nara, these cities are all so saturated by generations after generations, there’s no way that I can defeat them as a tourist. Unless I get to spend a stretch of time there, instead of a short trip of 3 or 4 days, only then I could figure out how to beat them.
AW：这个说法挺有意思。
That’s a fascinating way of putting it.
CW：你得把它干倒了之后才能把它变成自己的作品啊。当别人看一眼就能说出“哦，这是你的作品”，而不是说“哦，你拍的是京都”，这样等于京都把你干倒了。
Only after you beat the shit out of them you may turn them into your own work, so that when people look at it, they would go like, ‘Ah this is your work’, instead of, ‘Oh that’s a beautiful photo of Kyoto’, you know what I mean?
AW：你之前说拍嘉陵江，是因为它很近。
You said in an earlier interview that, one of the main reasons for you to photograph Jialing River3, was because it was close.
CW：我对远方没有什么幻想。
I have no fantasies about the faraway.
AW：有很多摄影师，比如说他们为了要拍到一张很好的照片，他们可能要去到一个很远，甚至是很危险的地方，但你好像对日常比较在意。
I believe there are many photographers who, in order to capture something magnificent, might go to a distant, or dangerous place even, but you don’t seem to be bothered, from what I saw, your eyes are more set on the dull mundane matters.
CW：你看我的题材，我对远方确实没有太大的向往，我觉得我把我力所能及的事情做好，就已经足够让我创作出好作品了。如果一直看着远方的话，当然我也会去，但总觉得跑这么远，像「在水边」，「河流全都知道」，这类很耗时，感觉很踏实的作品系列我肯定就拍不出来。我有另外一个系列叫「在石头的内部燃烧」，都是去远方旅游时拍下的风景照，当下看着好，看着美，比较合我心意就拍了，跟东京湾系列和荒川系列相比起来，是完全不一样的。
It’s presumably not hard to tell from my work that I have absolutely no yearning for the distant lands. I just think that as long as I could take care of the reality that exists a few inches in front of me, I’d be able to create some fantastic works. I mean, I would still travel don’t get me wrong, but I’ve always felt like I would never be able to produce work series like By the Water4, or Yes, the River Knows5 when I’m on a trip, these sort of hugely time-consuming and down-to-earth projects.
BURNING IN THE STONE (2017 – ongoing) is another work series that I created back in the day, they were photos I took while I was on a trip, for me, they look nice, aesthetically they are very pleasing but when you compare it with the Arakawa6 series or the Tokyo Bay series, they are just completely different.
AW：不一样是指？
Different in what sense?
CW：荒川系列是有一个明确要表达的东西在嘛，但是去旅游拍下的照片比较没有过多的表达，只是单纯的画面美感就足够了。
In Arakawa there’s a clear-cut message and within, layers of underlying subtexts, there’s something inherent that I wanted to express in the series. On the other hand there isn’t that much self-expression in the photos you take while travelling, in my opinion, they were mostly taken for aesthetic reasons.
AW：美国摄影师史蒂夫·夏皮罗（Steve Schapiro），他说过有一张具有持续影响力的照片是需要有一点历史因素在的。又比如说像森山大道当年也拍了很多东京‘里面’的题材，比如风俗，或者一些在新宿看着很湿答答的场景，这些都跟时代与政治背景是分不开的。你大学时主修的也是政治，但是反观你现在摄影的主题与内容都跟政治是或历史完全没有关系的，为什么呢？
According to Steve Schapiro, a photograph requires a definite degree of history to possess a long-lasting power. Take Daido Moriyama as another example, many of his themes involved going around the flip side of Tokyo back in the days, whether it’s fuzoku7, or the rainy scenes in Shinjuku, they were all inseparable from the era he was living in and the political background at the time. Although you majored in politics in university, what you photograph these days has no connections to the world of politics or history, why is that?
CW：政治相关的主题方面，我没有那么直接要表达的东西，那么直接的表达，就变成观念摄影了不是吗？你知道任何事情都逃不开政治，这个区域能够干什么，不能够干什么；为什么这儿是工业区而不能造居民区，都有政治的因素在，一切都是政治。比如说荒川，为什么政府要数次疏通河道，那是为了减少洪水对两岸的影响，这就是政治因素，所以没有必要去说它。明白的人自然就明白，不明白这件事情的也不影响他看这张照片，我觉得没必要说得太明显。
When it comes to politics-related themes the scope is more limited, there’s nothing I would like to address so conspicuously, otherwise it would shift into conceptual photography wouldn’t it? You know, nothing escapes politics; what can and cannot be done in a designated zone, why is it an industrial area here instead of a residential one — they are all politics. For example Arakawa, the government’s multiple dredging efforts were aimed at reducing the impact of flooding on both banks, this is by all accounts, politics, hence I just don’t see the point in talking about it in my work. if you understand where it comes from, great, but even if you don’t, it doesn’t really matter.
AW：你拍荒川，持续4，5年这么拍，接下来是东京湾，你想说的是什么呢？
You had been photographing the Arakawa River persistently for 4, 5 years, and you are moving on to Tokyo Bay next, what is it that you are trying to say?
CW：比起我想说的，更多是我想看看河两岸，看看东京湾究竟是什么样子，我把我看到的，通过照片告诉大家。我更在乎一张照片是否能打动我自己，能够打动自己的照片多了之后，自然会有一个叙事空间。经过筛选和编辑，大家看了我的照片之后，顺理成章就知道我看到的荒川或东京湾是什么样子。整个叙事也就代表了我的价值观，我为什么拍这个场景而不拍那个，是世界观，价值观，人文观的一个选择和判断，这也可能是为什么我跟其他人稍微有点儿不一样的地方。所以大家看了照片自然就能理解了，不理解其实也无所谓。
Rather than conveying a very explicit message, I wanted to explore the banks of the river and Tokyo Bay to see what they truly look like. I capture what I see, and by passing through the medium of photography, it is then shared with the audience. What matters most to me is whether a photograph can touch me emotionally, as the number of these photographs accumulates, a narrative naturally emerges. After going through the process of editing and selections, I believe the concentrated narrative of many myriad aspects would provide viewers with an intuitive understanding of what Arakawa or Tokyo Bay looks like from my perspective.
And the entire narrative just represents who I am as a person and a photographer — the reasons why I choose to photograph certain scenes and not others are reflections of my worldview, values, and human perspective, I guess this is what sets me apart. So I think viewers can get it when they look at my work, again, even if they don’t, there’s no harm right?
1. The Asadas (浅田家!) is a 2020 Japanese movie depicting the life story of Masashi Asada, the Kimura Ihei award-winning Japanese photographer and his family.
2. Tokyo Bay is a prominent natural harbour in Japan, located on the southeastern coast of Honshu island, encompassing Tokyo’s metropolitan area and serving as a crucial hub for maritime activities and coastal development.
3. The Jialing River in Chongqing, China, is a significant tributary of the Yangtze River, flowing through the urban landscape and providing a vital waterway for transportation and scenic views.
4. The Arakawa River is a major waterway in Tokyo, Japan, flowing through the city and providing scenic views and recreational opportunities for residents and visitors alike.
5. By the Water「水辺にて」(2012-2013) is a work series created by Wan during his university years in Chongqing. For well over a year, he photographed the Jialing River, which serves as a backdrop where people frequent for various activities and to contemplate. These fragments captured in photographs can perhaps be seen as the true reflection of the city’s collective emotions.
6. Yes, the River Knows – Arakawa River「河はすべて知っている──荒川」(2017-2022) is another work series created by Wan. The photographer’s approach to understanding Tokyo involved tracing its contours along the river’s path, emphasising water’s role as a silent witness to urban development and the human narrative. Arakawa River serves as a canvas onto which the city’s multifaceted identity is painted, all the while showcasing how human influence shapes the natural world. The work series captures the delicate balance between human insignificance in the face of nature’s grandeur and the formidable impact of human intervention. The river, in its flowing presence, acts as a record keeper, chronicling the ebb and flow of urban society and its surrounding environment.
7. Fuzoku (風俗) here refers to the entertainment industry, particularly related to adult-oriented services or establishments.
The original interview was conducted in Mandarin Chinese by Axel Wang on 25 February 2023. The conversation has been condensed and edited. The title of the chapter is in reference to the work series Yes, the River Knows – Arakawa River created by Chaofan Wan between 2017 and 2022.
Editor & Design: Axel Wang
Photography: Courtesy of the photographer